Elizabeth: 

00:03-00:05

The employer brand, we're certainly seeing the effectiveness.

Elizabeth: 

00:06-00:07

Lindsay mentioned internal comms.

Elizabeth: 

00:07-00:09

I mean, it's a great gut check for us.

Elizabeth: 

00:09-00:12

Is this something that we should be spending time communicating?

Elizabeth: 

00:13-00:14

How do we want to frame this?

Elizabeth: 

00:15-00:16

What's the level of importance?

Elizabeth: 

00:16-00:20

And it's a good decision-making tool, I would say, to help us frame our work.

Lindsay: 

00:21-00:27

The importance of, you know, 90% of it, in my opinion, needs to be true today.

Lindsay: 

00:28-00:33

and 10% of it aspirational or a reach.

Lindsay: 

00:34-00:45

That's what I think is helping us get buy-in, get adoption, because people hear the language, see the messages, see the work, and identify with it.

Jerry: 

00:47-00:56

Welcome to The Intangible Brand, the podcast where we explore the intersection between employee experience and client experience, and the hidden forces that make brands stick.

Jerry: 

00:57-01:00

I'm Jerry Genaria, and I'm joined by my co-host, Carl Winstead.

Jerry: 

01:00-01:07

And today we're talking with two leaders from Corgan, an architecture and design firm that's been shaping environments for over 85 years.

Jerry: 

01:08-01:19

With offices around the world and deep expertise across sectors from aviation to education to interiors, Corgan has been rethinking how their brand reflects the culture and values that they live every day.

Carl: 

01:21-01:28

Joining us today are Lindsay Wilson, President and Interior Sector Leader at Corgan, and Elizabeth Pierce, Principal and Chief Marketing Officer.

Carl: 

01:29-01:42

Now, they've been leading a thoughtful, multi-phase evolution of the Corrigan brand, one that started with a visual refresh, but quickly grew into a deeper conversation about culture, values, and the employee experience.

Carl: 

01:42-01:45

Lindsay, Elizabeth, thanks for joining us.

Lindsay: 

01:46-01:46

Thanks for having us.

Lindsay: 

01:47-01:49

This is one of our favorite things to talk about.

Carl: 

01:49-01:50

It's awesome.

Carl: 

01:50-01:50

Well, good.

Carl: 

01:51-01:55

You know, for listeners, that some folks may not be familiar with Corrigan.

Carl: 

01:56-02:06

So I'm wondering if maybe each of you can share maybe just a bit about your roles, how you collaborate day to day, just some background that'll kind of give us a good jumping point for today's discussion.

Lindsay: 

02:07-02:09

Sure, I don't mind going first.

Lindsay: 

02:09-02:18

But I will say what a pleasure it is to have Jerry, the author of some of our brand materials, explain our firm.

Lindsay: 

02:18-02:28

Like, you know, you often watch other people introduce your firm and you kind of cringe But like when the person who wrote the brand language does it, it's really a pleasure.

Lindsay: 

02:29-02:30

So thank you, Jerry.

Lindsay: 

02:30-02:31

It sounds great.

Lindsay: 

02:32-02:37

So I am the president and market sector leader for interiors, as you said.

Lindsay: 

02:37-02:39

But what does that look like like day to day?

Lindsay: 

02:39-02:51

Well, so from the people and brand side of things in terms of an executive leadership role, those are the areas that I really take ownership of and areas that I'm really passionate about.

Lindsay: 

02:51-03:09

We've been growing really quickly, and we know, and what we'll get into today, is that you can't lose focus on your brand, employer brand, and external brand, and the impact that it has on the people we have here, the people we want to retain, but also all of the people that we're trying to hire.

Elizabeth: 

03:09-03:15

So a lot of my day-to-day interactions with Elizabeth are around those exact things.

Elizabeth: 

03:16-03:37

Yeah, and I'm the chief marketing officer, so pretty self-explanatory. But here at Corrigan, our marketing team is divided into three primary categories. So we have core marketing, which is a lot of what you think of as core marketing services, focusing on winning new business, client relationships. It's one-to-one communications.

Elizabeth: 

03:38-03:51

Then we have our brand and experience team who hosts events and really cultivates our visual materials and our brand messaging so that we're consistent in how we're presenting ourselves into the market and within our own firm.

Elizabeth: 

03:52-04:12

And then we have a communications team that, of course, is working collaboratively with Core and with Brandon Experience to tell our story both externally and, as Lindsay mentioned, and as I know we'll talk about today, related to employer brand internally, which is a really important part of maintaining who we are from a cultural perspective.

Jerry: 

04:13-04:42

Yeah. So, you know, I think the thing everyone needs to understand as we get into this conversation is that you guys have been evolving quite a bit over the last few years. And, you know, we've seen you go through a brand evolution. And, you know, as you mentioned, Elizabeth, the focus on employee culture and your brand as an employer. So I'm wondering, can you give us a little bit of an understanding about what sparked this wanting to look at the brand, the shift that you guys have been going through?

Elizabeth: 

04:43-04:47

Do you want to start with what caused us to look at the external brand?

Elizabeth: 

04:47-05:04

Sure. Okay. So Lindsay mentioned in her introduction, we have been growing rapidly. And as growth occurs, you realize that you're onboarding and you're training and you're trying to create a consistent message so that your clients are having a consistent experience.

Elizabeth: 

05:04-05:18

So certainly for us, the growth has been a key driver in realizing that we needed to take a look at our materials and make sure that we had a consistent visual expression of who we are.

Elizabeth: 

05:18-05:32

We also recognize that that consistent expression and being able to grow globally and having a visual brand that represents the incredible work that the designers and architects are doing meant that we needed to level up a bit.

Elizabeth: 

05:32-05:39

And we needed our visual assets and our visual identity to mirror the sophistication of the design work the firm's doing.

Lindsay: 

05:41-05:53

So with that done, then we shifted from the external brand refresh to the website, which was planned ahead of time and was a really great way to go about it.

Lindsay: 

05:53-06:08

I think I would advocate that to other companies as well, like getting really clear on our brand before we made the investment in the new website worked so well and actually made the website process incredibly smooth on our end anyway.

Lindsay: 

06:09-06:17

And then we turned to internal brand, which was not something we had ever had a partner look at with us before.

Lindsay: 

06:18-06:28

And back to what Elizabeth was saying about growth, we realized we were doing a great job recruiting, but we were telling the same story, but in a lot of different ways.

Lindsay: 

06:29-06:45

And that we could really benefit from streamlining, taking a look at ourselves, taking a look at our values again, and then really streamlining that story so that it was consistent and consistent in our recruiting in particular.

Carl: 

06:46-06:47

Yeah, that's interesting.

Carl: 

06:47-07:12

you know we a lot of times talk about like a tipping point like what is it this is okay this is what we have to do because you know let's face it a rebrand is a really big decision and it's a big commitment do you think that you guys saw that as like yeah we had two or three leaders that came to that conclusion or was there a tipping point that a group said you know what it's time to do this now like was there something about that or a specific problem that you were trying to solve

Lindsay: 

07:12-08:33

of us and yeah this is what we got to do now so it's funny i still would not use the term re brand and maybe that's what we did but refresh i think we had a confidence around kind of the core of the brand but we had big so now we're going back what six seven years to the beginning of this whole process we had a real vision for our growth and for becoming well i shouldn't even say becoming, aligning our brand with our place in the market. So we have been for years one of the largest firms in the U.S. Now we're the fourth largest architecture firm in the U.S. We did not feel our brand was aligned with our position in our own industry. So while we were already there in terms of size, revenue, clients, design work, not everybody, and they still don't, but we're getting there, knows who Corgan is. Are we a household name? And so knowing that we had to get clear on that external brand, crystal clear, if we were ever going to elevate ourselves in the marketplace. So that was the tipping point, knowing where we wanted to go, where we were already headed, and then kind of looking at a little unsophistication, a little messiness, inefficiency.

Lindsay: 

08:34-08:38

We used way too many things for different reasons.

Elizabeth: 

08:38-08:46

I think adding on to the inefficiency piece from a marketing department perspective, you mentioned how much work a rebrand or even a refresh is.

Elizabeth: 

08:46-08:53

And while the effort is a lot of work, the end result is less work because you have so much clarity.

Elizabeth: 

08:53-08:55

It makes decision making easier.

Elizabeth: 

08:56-09:00

The consistency and the ability to reuse materials and repurpose materials.

Elizabeth: 

09:01-09:17

It all just falls into place and becomes much more efficient and easier to focus on the things that are actually making an impact for reworking and rebuilding things that aren't necessarily driving your brand message or your work forward.

Jerry: 

09:17-09:18

Right.

Carl: 

09:18-09:19

Okay.

Jerry: 

09:19-09:19

Good.

Jerry: 

09:19-09:19

Yeah.

Jerry: 

09:20-09:23

It's a good point about what we call these processes.

Jerry: 

09:23-09:33

Sometimes we, you know, I think there's a lot of terms that are thrown around and maybe we could maybe we could say it's a brand evolution going from one place to another.

Lindsay: 

09:33-09:34

That's totally fair.

Jerry: 

09:34-09:35

Yeah.

Jerry: 

09:35-09:41

I'm wondering, you know, through that process, were there any surprises, you know, aha moments that you had?

Lindsay: 

09:43-09:44

So curious what you'll say.

Lindsay: 

09:45-09:48

Well, one of them we were we still have.

Lindsay: 

09:49-09:52

So we have different market sectors.

Lindsay: 

09:52-09:57

So I'm the interior sector leader, for example, and you went through some of them, aviation, health care, data centers.

Lindsay: 

09:58-10:08

It is very interesting because we believe, collectively, that just the Corgan brand on its own is where the strength lies.

Lindsay: 

10:08-10:15

And if you're talking about brand building, just we're Corgan, we're all Corgan, and that's the message we should put forward.

Lindsay: 

10:16-10:29

We underestimated, and it still bubbles up, how people felt about these individual sector brands, if you will, calling themselves Corrigan Aviation, Corrigan Education, Corrigan Data Centers.

Lindsay: 

10:30-10:44

And we still have conversations about, yes, your internal brand inside Corrigan, the team feeling part of something that's smaller, firm within a firm, team within a team, is great.

Lindsay: 

10:44-10:49

And we want to encourage internal culture, you know, ownership and belonging.

Lindsay: 

10:50-10:55

But externally, the strength lies in the simplicity of Corrigan.

Lindsay: 

10:55-11:00

So that is still a con, that was an aha moment then, and it still bubbles up.

Elizabeth: 

11:00-11:01

Certainly nice.

Elizabeth: 

11:01-11:03

Yeah, we felt like segmenting the brand.

Elizabeth: 

11:03-11:10

I mean, back again, it's not about efficiency, but back to the efficiency piece, maintaining, in our case, we have eight market sectors.

Elizabeth: 

11:11-11:16

So if we externally were going to represent those individually, we have eight brands to maintain and build.

Elizabeth: 

11:17-11:21

So we felt like the collective is more powerful than the eight segmented.

Elizabeth: 

11:22-11:26

Interestingly, the other sort of aha I was thinking about is the alignment.

Elizabeth: 

11:27-11:41

So I was concerned that as we started going through the discovery process, that there would be a lot of differentiation and it would be difficult to come up with our firm brand messaging.

Elizabeth: 

11:42-11:49

And Toki, you may feel differently, Jerry and your team, but to me, it was obvious.

Elizabeth: 

11:49-11:50

There was a lot of alignment.

Elizabeth: 

11:50-12:01

It made it easy for us to come up with the differentiators that are common across the entire firm, which I think reinforces the single firm message as well.

Elizabeth: 

12:02-12:02

That was a good aha.

Jerry: 

12:03-12:14

Yeah, I think that's a challenge that a lot of firms face the larger that they get is that feeling like, you know, any given sector is sort of it could in many cases they could be firms on their own.

Jerry: 

12:15-12:20

I mean, many of your sectors, I think, could be very large architecture firms.

Lindsay: 

12:21-12:21

Absolutely.

Lindsay: 

12:21-12:21

Yeah.

Jerry: 

12:22-12:25

So, yeah, I mean, people have a lot of pride and you have a lot of offices.

Jerry: 

12:25-12:30

So you have some of those same challenges, I imagine, across the different offices as well.

Jerry: 

12:30-12:31

Yeah.

Carl: 

12:32-12:38

Well, I mean, speaking of challenges, too, you think about, you know, you mentioned the external side, right?

Carl: 

12:38-12:49

All those different sort of sectors, the different offices, all of those are unique clients and they've got different sort of needs and different kind of, you know, experiences.

Carl: 

12:50-13:03

And so when you start thinking about how do you communicate a refresh or a rebrand or any of those kind of, you know, changes to clients on the external side, just kind of wondering, like, how did you think about communicating that?

Carl: 

13:03-13:11

And were there things that like you thought, yeah, this worked and maybe some things that didn't work as you tried to sort of bring clients into that change?

Lindsay: 

13:12-13:18

I mean, the fact that we are we already had a single consolidated marketing team.

Lindsay: 

13:18-13:26

So we didn't have the hurdle of these different sectors, if you will, having their own marketing teams.

Lindsay: 

13:26-13:30

So I think that was an advantage that we had in terms of the rollout.

Lindsay: 

13:30-13:40

We were already going to a single source team within our own organization to do all of our responses, client branding, internal branding.

Lindsay: 

13:41-13:43

So that made the rollout smoother.

Lindsay: 

13:44-13:45

Easy for me to say.

Lindsay: 

13:45-13:46

Not that hard.

Lindsay: 

13:47-13:48

Maybe Elizabeth should answer.

Elizabeth: 

13:49-13:52

So I do agree with that point.

Elizabeth: 

13:52-14:03

We had one unified team working on these efforts and sharing the challenges and learnings very easily and seamlessly across the marketing team.

Elizabeth: 

14:04-14:09

From a client perspective, I think this is such a big deal to us, right?

Elizabeth: 

14:09-14:13

This rebrand, refresh, we were so excited.

Elizabeth: 

14:13-14:20

But from a client's perspective, us announcing that we have a new brand probably isn't that meaningful to them.

Elizabeth: 

14:21-14:25

I think for them, it's more meaningful with all the touch points along the way.

Elizabeth: 

14:25-14:30

So that initial announcement may be a little bit of a letdown for a marketing team.

Elizabeth: 

14:31-14:33

You know, why don't you care about our new brands?

Elizabeth: 

14:34-14:36

But it's the clients are looking for the proof.

Elizabeth: 

14:37-14:38

So we roll this out.

Elizabeth: 

14:38-14:44

We say that we're this, that these are differentiators, or this is, you know, how we're going to make our place in the market.

Carl: 

14:44-14:46

when we prove it.

Elizabeth: 

14:46-14:57

And that's probably the most internal part about rolling it out internally is getting the people who are client facing to buy in and to believe and to be able to prove these messages that we're delivering.

Elizabeth: 

14:57-15:01

And then that aha, I think from the client side comes with time.

Elizabeth: 

15:02-15:05

Those consistent, repeated actions.

Jerry: 

15:06-15:11

I mean, that's a good segue to, let's talk about the internal side.

Jerry: 

15:12-15:25

How do you bring the team along through the rebrand? You know, at what point does it sort of click with everyone? And were there places that it took more work? What's happened through the process itself? And then kind of since

Lindsay: 

15:25-15:49

then? I think the biggest click for everybody was when the website was done. So we were behind when we should have updated the website. So it was had kind of reached the point where everybody just had very strong feelings about that our website was tired and wasn't a good tool and people couldn't find what they were looking for, et cetera.

Lindsay: 

15:50-16:04

One of my favorite pieces of feedback that was recurring when the website was ready to launch or when we were showcasing elements of it to different teams along the way was, well, this isn't really unexpected.

Lindsay: 

16:04-16:06

This looks exactly like I thought it would.

Lindsay: 

16:07-16:08

We were like, victory.

Lindsay: 

16:09-16:09

Perfect.

Lindsay: 

16:09-16:10

Like, exactly.

Lindsay: 

16:10-16:12

Like the website's not supposed to come out of left field.

Lindsay: 

16:13-16:16

Like we've been building on, you know, what is the Corrigan brand?

Lindsay: 

16:16-16:17

It's clean.

Lindsay: 

16:17-16:18

It's a little bit casual.

Lindsay: 

16:19-16:20

We feel approachable.

Lindsay: 

16:20-16:21

All these things.

Lindsay: 

16:21-16:28

And so, yes, the website looks exactly like you thought it would, which is nothing like what the old one looked like.

Lindsay: 

16:28-16:29

So that was some of my favorite.

Lindsay: 

16:29-16:33

And we got that feedback a lot, really consistently.

Lindsay: 

16:33-16:51

So I think that was a moment when, at least from the external brand evolution, where it all came together. And I would, I mean, you can't underscore enough the writing style. I think for me, that was one of the more fun things to watch come together.

Lindsay: 

16:51-17:01

I think that is something that was very disjointed before, like depending on whose voice it was in or which team was kind of turning something in.

Lindsay: 

17:01-17:08

And when the writing style of the website was done, it was like, oh, I think people got like, this is us.

Lindsay: 

17:08-17:10

This is who we are.

Elizabeth: 

17:10-17:12

Yeah, it sounds like us.

Elizabeth: 

17:13-17:13

Yeah.

Elizabeth: 

17:13-17:25

That's the advantage of working with a good partner who really knows and understands you and you trust and you feel like you can hand over those writing assignments too and get back something that sounds like it came from your internal team.

Elizabeth: 

17:26-17:34

I agree with that. It's the show not tell. Our biggest ahas, especially with the people who are closest to the brand, the marketing team, I'll speak from that perspective.

Elizabeth: 

17:35-17:42

You're really proud of all the work that you've been putting out and someone's coming in and saying it needs to change. We're evolving.

Elizabeth: 

17:42-18:03

And when you see the work that you produced that you were so proud of next to what it could be with this new brand refresh, we had a lot of aha moments and complete buy-in because you immediately can see the difference and the impact that this new refresh can take.

Elizabeth: 

18:04-18:05

So show, not tell.

Carl: 

18:05-18:06

Yes, I agree.

Carl: 

18:07-18:08

Well, that's interesting.

Carl: 

18:08-18:16

So speaking about, you know, the impact it makes, I mean, we always hope, right, that our refreshes or rebrands will move the needle.

Carl: 

18:16-18:20

It will change the way people see us or perceive us.

Carl: 

18:21-18:23

And that's, you know, from the inside and the outside.

Carl: 

18:24-18:34

Do you, when you kind of look back at kind of the history of what you've done and where you are today, do you see that that refresh maybe changed the way people perceive, Corgan?

Lindsay: 

18:35-18:36

I think so.

Lindsay: 

18:37-18:41

Some of the funniest moments are, you know, you get an opportunity.

Lindsay: 

18:41-18:42

I'll just speak for interior.

Lindsay: 

18:43-18:45

So, like, you get a headquarters opportunity.

Lindsay: 

18:46-18:48

And we all start throwing out ideas.

Lindsay: 

18:48-18:52

And every once in a while, somebody will bring up something really old.

Lindsay: 

18:52-18:55

Like, oh, our approach when we won fossil.

Lindsay: 

18:56-18:57

Like, let's go grab that.

Lindsay: 

18:57-18:58

Let's look at what that was.

Lindsay: 

18:59-19:01

And then you go and get it and pull it up.

Lindsay: 

19:01-19:03

And it's like, that's horrifying.

Lindsay: 

19:04-19:05

How did we win?

Lindsay: 

19:05-19:06

How did we win?

Carl: 

19:07-19:08

We were these people.

Lindsay: 

19:09-19:13

That's one way that it's reinforced how far we've come.

Lindsay: 

19:13-19:20

We look back at something we were really proud of and was successful, but wasn't polished.

Lindsay: 

19:20-19:23

Didn't have a point of view, I think is what comes through the most.

Lindsay: 

19:24-19:33

How often we would try to emulate the brand of the company we were pursuing, whether it was a school district or a hospital or a corporation.

Lindsay: 

19:33-19:39

we would feel like the brand, the submissions, the RFP, the qualifications, the presentation

Lindsay: 

19:39-19:45

needed to reflect their brand. I think we didn't have a confidence in our own brand. That's one of

Lindsay: 

19:45-20:06

the big things that I see. The other comment that's really regular that I love and hate at the same time, even when we lose, we regularly get the comment, it was the best looking submission. It or team or whatever reason.

Lindsay: 

20:06-20:15

I don't know that we've ever, just say it here, we have never lost on the look of our materials.

Jerry: 

20:17-20:27

So I think one of the things I'm interested in is, you know, once this rebrand or brand evolution was, you know, kind of out in the world, you guys didn't stop.

Jerry: 

20:27-20:28

You kept going.

Jerry: 

20:28-20:38

So we really dug into the internal culture, your values, kind of a deep dive. What was the driver for continuing and going down that path?

Lindsay: 

20:39-21:10

It was very organic. And I think part of it was everyone did embrace the external brand evolution and then would kind of try to use the same language to describe the employee journey, the employee experience. And it was never, we're like, well, that's not quite, That's not quite right. We are incredibly agile internally and externally, but that's not really the story or the brand promise to our employees.

Lindsay: 

21:11-21:28

So then compounded by the continued growth of new offices of a lot of people that didn't start in a in a longtime Corgan office like New York or Phoenix or L.A. or Dallas, but we're starting in a much smaller office with seven, eight or 10 people.

Lindsay: 

21:29-21:32

So we just started, nothing negative happened.

Lindsay: 

21:32-21:46

It was just like, we have a moment, we can seize this and really collect our, check on our values, check on our mission and get our story straight, if you will, not change it.

Lindsay: 

21:46-21:53

And I think what was really important to us that we trusted Toki with this process was we had to hear from our employees.

Lindsay: 

21:54-21:59

This wasn't going to be Elizabeth and I sitting in a room saying, this is our internal brand.

Elizabeth: 

22:00-22:06

And then it turned into a really validating experience because of what all of our people said.

Elizabeth: 

22:06-22:19

Yeah, I don't have much to add, except I would say that back to growth and the focus on recruiting, placing people in offices that didn't have the same Corrigan history as some of the more established offices.

Elizabeth: 

22:19-22:22

Just, I like what Lindsay said, get our story straight.

Elizabeth: 

22:22-22:28

We kept saying, anyone you would ask at Corgan, you would say, you know, what's it like or what's the culture like?

Elizabeth: 

22:28-22:30

And they'd say, it's just different or it's just special.

Lindsay: 

22:31-22:34

But that doesn't mean anything to the person you're talking to.

Elizabeth: 

22:34-22:36

So we had to put words to what special is.

Elizabeth: 

22:36-22:37

Yeah.

Carl: 

22:37-22:37

Yeah.

Carl: 

22:38-22:52

You know, Lindsay, you did mention values, that part of the work that was done here was not just focused on defining, you know, what Corgan believes in your values, but it was also, you know, maybe how those beliefs can show up in behavior.

Carl: 

22:52-22:55

you know, with your employees and people that you work with.

Carl: 

22:55-23:14

I'm just kind of wondering when you talk about that and you talk about the kinds of conversations that maybe your culture and this refresh sparked inside the firm, are there things that kind of stand out about what that prompted and what was different when you started listening to those conversations?

Lindsay: 

23:15-23:16

For sure.

Lindsay: 

23:16-23:28

In particular, I remember some conversations where we say, yes, we have integrity, But we don't normally sit around and say, okay, what does it look like to have integrity?

Lindsay: 

23:28-23:30

What does that look like at Corgan?

Lindsay: 

23:31-23:38

And, you know, what would come up is like having the difficult conversation with a teammate, giving the feedback.

Lindsay: 

23:39-23:49

Having integrity looks like admitting, you know, something could have been done differently to a customer when, you know, maybe the path didn't go exactly right.

Lindsay: 

23:49-23:55

So having conversations about just what you're saying, what did our values look like in behavior?

Lindsay: 

23:55-24:02

And not always agreeing, but always validating, yes, that is important to being a Corganite.

Lindsay: 

24:02-24:07

Yes, that is important to who we are and how we behave.

Lindsay: 

24:07-24:14

And separating, like, what does that look like at work from what does that look like in the community, I think was an important conversation as well.

Carl: 

24:14-24:15

Interesting.

Carl: 

24:15-24:16

Interesting.

Jerry: 

24:16-24:17

Yeah.

Jerry: 

24:17-24:45

So I think it's been, what, about 18 months or so since you completed that work. What's the outcome? Are you seeing changes in how people are behaving, how they're leading, maybe how they're giving feedback or showing up for clients? And how's that also playing from office to office? You mentioned New York and Phoenix and LA and some of the smaller offices. Is that bringing people together? Are people kind of creating their own versions of it?

Jerry: 

24:45-24:48

What's happening now that you've gone through this?

Lindsay: 

24:49-24:59

So I would say the adoption of the language is still ongoing, and it does take probably longer than we would like as well.

Lindsay: 

25:00-25:06

What we started with that was very successful last year was, you know, low-hanging fruit was all of our recruiting materials.

Lindsay: 

25:08-25:15

Recruiting on campus is incredibly important to us, and new graduate hires are a huge part of our recruitment funnel.

Lindsay: 

25:15-25:48

and always, always have been to the tune of like 150 new grad hires this year, probably more than that. So starting with those materials and really, instead of talking about, hey, we do all these great projects, going onto campus and talking about, do you want to work at a place where you can make amazing places that will make you amazing? Like that being the storyline, the best thing we build is each other. And changing that perspective on campus first was really a great entry point.

Lindsay: 

25:48-26:18

So then everybody who experienced campus recruiting as part of that, the employees, became more well-versed in the language. We did include in our annual review form this year, asking people to reflect on our values and how did they think they showed up reflective of our values this year. We're going to keep morphing that a little bit. But overall, we got good feedback that people liked having that conversation with their leaders and with their managers. So

Elizabeth: 

26:18-26:49

those would be two things I would highlight. What would you, yeah, campus recruiting, definitely, and it ended up being, to your point, a training ground for those who were going to campus because we could dive deep into what each of these pillars mean. When we say career agility, this is what that looks like and how you explain it to someone on campus. So That was great. I do think because, and you touched on this earlier, because the employer brand came out of what our employees said, it was really just packaging words around who we already were.

Elizabeth: 

26:49-27:09

So I didn't expect a big behavior shift, I think, and haven't seen one, but I wouldn't expect it. I think what we did is we were now able to articulate what it looks like to be a Corganite, but we weren't really looking for people to be different than how they were showing up prior to the employer brand.

Elizabeth: 

27:10-27:20

But what I am excited about is moving forward as we apply it to hiring, we know what we're looking for because we know what we're looking for in terms of tactical skills.

Elizabeth: 

27:21-27:26

But from a personality perspective and a cultural fit, those people, how are you going to be successful here?

Elizabeth: 

27:26-27:31

We can point to our brand pillars, point to some interview questions that help us understand how they would respond.

Elizabeth: 

27:32-27:35

Your point about integrity is a good one.

Elizabeth: 

27:35-27:37

You know, how do you respond in this situation?

Elizabeth: 

27:37-27:42

Integrity is table stakes, I would imagine, for most companies, but the way it looks like at Corgan is this.

Elizabeth: 

27:44-27:48

So I don't know that I expected to see a big behavioral shift.

Elizabeth: 

27:48-27:49

Lindsay's right.

Elizabeth: 

27:49-27:53

The language is something that's going to take time for people to adopt.

Elizabeth: 

27:53-28:03

But one thing that came out of this that I thought was really valuable is examples of how to present the brand promise in different ways.

Elizabeth: 

28:03-28:11

So being authentic to how you speak, you know, everyone won't come across naturally saying make amazing places at a place that makes you amazing.

Elizabeth: 

28:12-28:20

But you guys provided us with some great tools to to make it easier for everyone to authentically communicate it in conversation.

Elizabeth: 

28:20-28:22

And that's been, I think, really helpful.

Carl: 

28:23-28:33

Yeah, I think that's really strong because I think, you know, sometimes we remind ourselves that as design professionals or design professional group, we have two resources.

Carl: 

28:33-29:06

that's all we get. We get clients and we get our team and our staff. That's, that's the, those are the two things we get to work with. And I think it's interesting that you've talked about the positive impact that you think the refresh has on like campus recruiting, but I would imagine you start talking about just recruiting in general, which is where I think you're kind of headed that, you know, using that as, as part of the tool for making an impact on just on hiring. And then the The other piece is that we always say that retention, like, again, it's the people that we find and we want to keep them.

Carl: 

29:06-29:18

So I think you're saying that the refresh is going to play a role in supporting both of those things with retention and recruiting as far as just general hiring, I would think.

Lindsay: 

29:19-29:41

It does. And I can tell you, we also reflect on these brand pillars, the internal brand pillars, whenever we are have an initiative or something that we're looking to tackle. The simplest one ever this year was like just reinforcing to people how important it is to turn in your time sheets on time. Boring.

Lindsay: 

29:42-29:47

But the way we decided to talk about it was about exceptional support.

Lindsay: 

29:48-29:52

And timesheet's not just about you don't feel like filling out your timesheet right now.

Lindsay: 

29:53-30:00

We have an entire team of coworkers that you know personally that can't do their job until you do your job.

Lindsay: 

30:00-30:12

And so really talking about what does support look like, how do we help each other in building something can reframe a message that Scott and I were delivering.

Lindsay: 

30:12-30:30

So instead of just saying, good grief, turn in your timesheet on time. Instead, we talked about exceptional support and supporting each other. And we're all in this together. Those those internal brand messages we used as tools around why we do the things that we we do.

Jerry: 

30:31-30:33

Yeah. Did you mind if we borrow that?

Carl: 

30:35-30:36

You can. Yes.

Lindsay: 

30:36-30:39

Is it part of your employer brand? Is it part of your employer brand?

Carl: 

30:39-30:49

Yeah, right. I know. I think that's I think it's a universal, you know, I won't say struggle, but it's a it's a challenge all the way around. Right. But I like the way you framed it, though. That that that's brilliant.

Carl: 

30:50-30:51

Yeah. Have you seen an impact?

Jerry: 

30:54-30:57

Have you seen an impact in in timesheet performance after that?

Lindsay: 

30:59-31:21

Well, we also send a lot more reminder emails. But yes, those two things together, we have seen an impact. And in a way, you're just trying to change the conversation of like, okay, this isn't just about you. This is about our other team. Everybody wants to do a good job. If we don't do these little things, then other people can't do their job well.

Lindsay: 

31:22-31:40

And yes, we have seen an increase in those things, but I think an internal employer brand, that was probably maybe something unexpected to me, that if it's true and if it's real, then you can use it to help explain a lot of behaviors that you want to see.

Lindsay: 

31:40-31:47

Like, no, we've already decided how we behave, but this particular thing that we're doing isn't in alignment.

Lindsay: 

31:47-31:49

So let's get in alignment.

Lindsay: 

31:49-31:51

We're not making up a new employer brand every time.

Lindsay: 

31:51-31:56

We're not, you know, claiming that culture is important to us just out of the blue.

Lindsay: 

31:56-32:03

No, we've already said culture is our currency, and that's why we're going to align on certain things.

Lindsay: 

32:03-32:09

That's why we're going to do a certain thing or not do a certain thing.

Lindsay: 

32:09-32:13

So in a way, it's been incredibly helpful from a leadership and from a comms.

Lindsay: 

32:13-32:18

Elizabeth and I collaborate a lot on firm-wide communications in particular.

Lindsay: 

32:19-32:23

And we're often using, we go back, we have the one pager.

Lindsay: 

32:23-32:24

I think I have it.

Lindsay: 

32:25-32:29

You know, like, is this all, does this all jive?

Lindsay: 

32:30-32:36

And we went through our Vision 2030 process recently, and we were checking, you know, everything that we were saying were focus areas.

Lindsay: 

32:37-32:42

Can we check it back with all this other work we've done, both external brand and internal brand?

Lindsay: 

32:42-32:43

Does everything check out?

Lindsay: 

32:43-32:46

Are we on a consistent path?

Jerry: 

32:46-32:46

Right.

Jerry: 

32:47-32:54

Yeah, there's a definite connection between strategy, vision, brand, your internal communications.

Jerry: 

32:55-32:56

All those things have to be in alignment.

Jerry: 

32:57-32:57

Yeah.

Elizabeth: 

32:58-33:01

Yeah, if they're segmented, you're not going to get any buy-in.

Jerry: 

33:01-33:02

Right.

Jerry: 

33:02-33:03

Yeah, exactly.

Jerry: 

33:03-33:18

So having gone through this process, is there things that you learned along the way that you think other firms, you know, don't really understand about the connection between employer brand and culture work or that how that connects with the external brand?

Jerry: 

33:18-33:23

Just kind of what would you advise to other firms that are trying to tackle this?

Elizabeth: 

33:24-33:29

I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is to be patient.

Elizabeth: 

33:29-33:43

It doesn't happen overnight and you shouldn't change on a whim. I think something that Lindsay's kind of ingrained into me over the years is when I say everybody says this, how many is everybody?

Elizabeth: 

33:44-33:49

So you're going to have to it's going to take time for different people to buy into something.

Elizabeth: 

33:50-34:00

And if you're reacting to each person's reaction and consistently changing, you're never going to get to a point of consistency in a real brand that has impact.

Elizabeth: 

34:00-34:11

So basically, I guess, patience and knowing that you base the brand and whatever it is that you're rolling out, whether it's the visual identity, the messaging, the employer brand, that it's based in research.

Elizabeth: 

34:11-34:15

So it's an authentic representation of who you are and where you're coming from.

Elizabeth: 

34:16-34:20

Not something to Lindsay's point earlier that we made up in a conference room.

Elizabeth: 

34:21-34:24

Then you really have you have no reason to change it.

Elizabeth: 

34:24-34:27

You have every reason to be patient and to let it kind of prove itself out.

Elizabeth: 

34:28-34:43

And it's certainly the visual identity and the external brand we've had now since 2019 in place, and we are absolutely seeing the dividends and the buy-in, and we've had time to see it be effective.

Elizabeth: 

34:44-35:01

The employer brand, we're certainly seeing the effectiveness. Lindsay mentioned internal comms. I mean, it's a great gut check for us. Is this something that we should be spending time communicating? How do we want to frame this? And what's the level of importance? And it's a good decision-making tool, I would say, to help us frame our work.

Lindsay: 

35:02-35:24

I would just add, I think when you put an internal team together to work on it, and I think we did a good job, the importance of, you know, 90% of it, in my opinion, needs to be true today and 10% of it aspirational or a reach.

Lindsay: 

35:25-35:40

That's what I think is helping us get buy-in, get adoption, because people hear the language, see the messages, see the work, and identify with it instead of kind of saying, oh, well, that's marketing.

Lindsay: 

35:41-35:42

None of this is marketing.

Lindsay: 

35:43-35:44

This is communication.

Lindsay: 

35:45-35:46

This is telling our story.

Lindsay: 

35:47-35:54

Now, there are some aspirational, when we talk about being agents of change, I think that is a more aspirational part that we were all really comfortable with.

Lindsay: 

35:55-35:57

Like, we are there, but we could do better.

Lindsay: 

35:58-36:12

So that balance, I think I would make sure you have the right people around the table, that you have somebody who's going to push that aspirational piece, but you're really grounded in reality if you want to have adoption.

Lindsay: 

36:12-36:19

And if you discover areas of your culture that you want to change in the process, I think that's a great thing.

Lindsay: 

36:19-36:22

But maybe that's over time.

Lindsay: 

36:22-36:25

You can't change anything with a message.

Jerry: 

36:25-36:27

Yeah, it's interesting.

Jerry: 

36:27-36:31

It's one of the things that we run across when we're working with firms.

Jerry: 

36:31-36:38

How much of this messaging that we're developing should be aspirational versus how much of it's grounded in who we are today?

Jerry: 

36:39-36:44

And I think sometimes it's a tricky thing, you know, depending on where the firm is.

Jerry: 

36:44-36:46

How much do you need to change?

Jerry: 

36:46-36:52

How much is kind of the culture and who you are authentically who you want to be?

Jerry: 

36:54-36:59

So using it as an opportunity to kind of chart a path to the future is certainly valuable.

Jerry: 

36:59-37:03

But I think that's really good advice to be as authentic to who you are as possible.

Jerry: 

37:04-37:04

Yeah.

Lindsay: 

37:04-37:11

And if you were small, if you're a 50, 100 person firm, that's a different challenge.

Lindsay: 

37:11-37:15

If you say, oh, we want to shift our culture, you can probably do that pretty quickly.

Lindsay: 

37:15-37:21

If you're 1,300 people, you have to be realistic about who are we right now?

Lindsay: 

37:21-37:22

Do we want to shift?

Lindsay: 

37:22-37:24

Of course, we always want to evolve.

Lindsay: 

37:25-37:29

Let's evolve first and then have the message follow.

Carl: 

37:29-37:30

Right. Yeah.

Carl: 

37:30-37:30

Yeah.

Carl: 

37:31-37:37

Yeah, I think one of the important things, too, is what your leadership, what's driving the leadership with this change, right?

Carl: 

37:38-37:41

You know, is somebody seeing, is it, oh, it's just a way for us to get more work?

Carl: 

37:42-37:46

Or no, it's a really way for us to become who we're intended to become.

Carl: 

37:47-37:52

And, you know, becoming who you're intended to become takes a little bit of a commitment.

Carl: 

37:53-37:56

And I think one of the things that would be interesting to know is, you know, just kind of advice.

Carl: 

37:57-37:59

Think about another firm that's like thinking about this.

Carl: 

37:59-38:03

And it really does have to kind of drive from somewhere in leadership.

Carl: 

38:04-38:10

Is there like any piece of advice that you would give a firm leader that says this is this is what and why?

Lindsay: 

38:11-38:16

I mean, my advice, it is understanding where you're trying to go.

Lindsay: 

38:16-38:29

So when I really think about some of the things we didn't want to change about our culture and our firm, but we had to change the messaging in order to keep them going, I'll explain.

Lindsay: 

38:30-38:34

So Corgan has always been a place with employees with long tenures.

Lindsay: 

38:35-38:37

People have always built careers here.

Lindsay: 

38:37-38:48

Well, one of the things we saw changing was just generationally, that's not how young architects and designers, even young accountants and IT professionals, were thinking about their career.

Lindsay: 

38:48-38:51

Well, we didn't want to change that about Corgan.

Lindsay: 

38:52-38:55

So we needed to change how we were communicating.

Lindsay: 

38:55-38:58

Why would you build a career here?

Lindsay: 

38:59-39:06

Why is this a place where you can't career agility is probably the hallmark in the internal brand about that?

Lindsay: 

39:06-39:12

Like, just because you start doing one thing, we believe you could end up in a very different place.

Lindsay: 

39:12-39:19

A lot of that driven by your own desires, hard work and initiative that we will then support.

Lindsay: 

39:20-39:31

So I think that was an example of knowing who we were and who we wanted to be, but that we weren't telling a story that was modern or impactful to a new generation.

Lindsay: 

39:32-39:40

So that having clarity at the leadership level, which we 100 percent did about who are we, who do we want to be?

Lindsay: 

39:40-39:42

And we knew we wanted to grow.

Lindsay: 

39:42-39:44

Everyone was aligned on that.

Lindsay: 

39:44-39:45

We want to be in more places.

Lindsay: 

39:45-39:46

We want to serve more clients.

Lindsay: 

39:47-39:48

We want to be able to.

Lindsay: 

39:49-39:51

We talk about opportunity all the time.

Lindsay: 

39:51-39:52

We grow here for opportunity.

Lindsay: 

39:52-39:55

And that's part of this career, building a career and career trajectory.

Lindsay: 

39:56-39:57

We never grow for growth's sake.

Lindsay: 

39:57-40:03

Like we grow to give people opportunities to do the types of projects they want to do to build the careers that they want to build.

Lindsay: 

40:03-40:05

So we knew all that.

Lindsay: 

40:05-40:11

So I would say if you can't get your senior leadership team together to say, who are we and where are we going and what story are we telling?

Lindsay: 

40:11-40:17

Then you're probably wasting resources trying to do a brand evolution.

Lindsay: 

40:18-40:21

But the order that we went in, I would stick by and recommend.

Lindsay: 

40:22-40:27

I think it would be incredibly difficult to start with the internal branding.

Lindsay: 

40:27-40:53

Not impossible. And if you pick a partner, by the time we got to the internal brand, the team at Toki, Jerry, Brian, everybody knew us. I mean, they could write the internal brand. I mean, we still went through the process, but that external, then web, then internal was a pretty awesome workflow from our side.

Elizabeth: 

40:53-41:21

Totally agree. From a professional services company standpoint, I think starting with external makes sense. And I think you're going to get buy-in first. And to Lindsay's point, it gives your partner, assuming you're going to use the same partner for all three or four pieces, an opportunity to get to know you in an authentic way without asking, what do you like? They're really experiencing it from the external brand building perspective. And so then when you get to the internal, they're able to kind of call you on it.

Elizabeth: 

41:21-41:28

Like if you say something that you are that they've already experienced that you're not, they can have a conversation about, is that aspirational?

Elizabeth: 

41:28-41:29

Is that real?

Elizabeth: 

41:29-41:30

Is that one sector or one office?

Elizabeth: 

41:31-41:33

So I think that was really valuable.

Elizabeth: 

41:34-41:38

To add on some of the stuff that Lindsay said around leaders, we were fortunate here.

Elizabeth: 

41:38-41:50

And I think her point about wasting resources, if your leadership isn't aligned and you can't get the right people in the room to have honest conversations, particularly with employer brand, you need your executive leadership team.

Elizabeth: 

41:51-42:03

But you need marketing and HR to work in collaboration and to be bought in and moving in lockstep and to be able to have the conversations about the different needs.

Elizabeth: 

42:03-42:13

Because while we're all looking to make the employee experience great, HR's drivers and marketing and communications drivers may vary a little bit.

Elizabeth: 

42:13-42:39

So getting your ducks in a row internally and making sure that you have the right leaders in place and the people who can execute on it, because you could do all this work. And if you don't have the right team to implement it, it's going to sit on a shelf somewhere. So I think the team, the committee, the group that's pushing it forward, getting aligned on the goals first is going to be really key and I think has made it successful for us.

Jerry: 

42:39-42:55

Good point. Yeah. So I really appreciate you guys taking the time to chat. And I'm wondering, as you kind of reflect on the conversation that we've been having, is there one thing that you think our listeners should take away from this conversation?

Lindsay: 

42:56-43:10

We did not dress alike on purpose. It's not part of our brand. Although coordinating is a hallmark of our culture. People dress alike a lot. This is next level, though.

Lindsay: 

43:11-43:24

I think what I would say in seriousness, what your listeners should take away is it is so important to have the internal brand piece.

Lindsay: 

43:24-43:36

I think the external, the employer brand piece, the external gets all the love because we're all putting our brand out there, selling something in one way or another.

Lindsay: 

43:37-43:47

But the impact of knowing our story, being able to tell it effectively, being able to edit our story through that lens is incredibly impactful.

Lindsay: 

43:47-43:56

So if you're a leader and you're looking at those initiatives, don't move employer brand to the bottom.

Lindsay: 

43:58-43:59

It's even more valuable.

Lindsay: 

43:59-44:03

We knew it was valuable, and it's even more valuable than I think we thought.

Elizabeth: 

44:04-44:07

Yeah, I would say from a marketing perspective, I was going to say it's worth it.

Elizabeth: 

44:08-44:21

Kind of to echo Lindsay's point, but from a marketing leader standpoint, if you're putting your budget together and you're trying to pitch this and you're overwhelmed by what the perception is that it's going to be a lot of work, it's going to pull your resources from their day job.

Elizabeth: 

44:22-44:38

That's not inaccurate. It will, but it's so worth it. And the impact that it will have in just the excitement generated on your team and the pride generated on your team when you're working, when everything you're doing is surrounding a brand that they're really bought into and believe in.

Elizabeth: 

44:39-44:53

I think that impact goes a long way, but also in their work effectiveness. You're able, you understand the goal and you're able to build materials or messaging or pitch stories that are in alignment with that. So I think it's, I would just say it's worth it.

Carl: 

44:54-44:55

Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

Carl: 

44:55-45:18

Well, I thank you. I mean, you guys have shared so much sort of education and knowledge with us today. It's great. I would ask, you know, speaking of education and knowledge, I know we're all sort of reading books and podcasts, listening to podcasts. Just wondering, you know, like right now in your library, like what is it that you're reading or what are you listening to that you think that our listeners should be tuning into as well?

Lindsay: 

45:19-45:26

I mean, if you're listening to this and you haven't read Unreasonable Hospitality, you should just start there.

Jerry: 

45:27-45:27

That's a good one.

Lindsay: 

45:28-45:29

I mean, that resonated.

Lindsay: 

45:29-45:34

And I don't know if it ties back to the way we think about culture so much.

Lindsay: 

45:35-45:42

But as that book has spread just inside our own organization, our HR leader has really taken it to heart.

Lindsay: 

45:42-45:44

I think that is a great place to start.

Lindsay: 

45:44-45:49

And that fits as a read or listen because the author, Will Gadara, actually reads it.

Lindsay: 

45:49-45:54

And I think the Audible in that one is a great way to go.

Elizabeth: 

45:55-45:55

Agree.

Elizabeth: 

45:55-45:56

I would have said the same one.

Elizabeth: 

45:57-46:00

I do think our first brand pillar is Extraordinary Sport.

Elizabeth: 

46:00-46:01

Lindsay referenced it earlier.

Elizabeth: 

46:02-46:07

And you can just replace it with unreasonable hospitality in the professional services space.

Elizabeth: 

46:08-46:10

I don't know that I have another book I'd throw out there.

Elizabeth: 

46:11-46:11

Maybe I'm odd.

Elizabeth: 

46:11-46:14

I know everyone probably has a whole library of books.

Elizabeth: 

46:14-46:25

I think one of the places that I've been getting the most inspiration lately has been, maybe this is a result of like 2020 hangover, but it's been networking groups.

Elizabeth: 

46:25-46:31

Sounds weird, but really curated, strong groups of like-minded peers.

Elizabeth: 

46:31-46:38

So I'm a member of the chief marketing officer, LFR, American Institute of Architects, large firm roundtable.

Elizabeth: 

46:38-46:55

It's a mouthful. And having a group of like-minded peers that you can go to and really get inspiration from, bounce ideas off of, employer brand is something we talk about a lot. That has been just a really great resource for me lately.

Carl: 

46:57-46:59

Okay. Yeah. Thanks.

Lindsay: 

46:59-47:05

Following Jefferson Fisher on Instagram with all of his public speaking and communication tips.

Lindsay: 

47:05-47:06

That would be my other one.

Lindsay: 

47:06-47:07

I think he's amazing.

Lindsay: 

47:08-47:08

Okay.

Jerry: 

47:08-47:08

Yeah.

Jerry: 

47:09-47:10

The Unreasonable Hospitality.

Jerry: 

47:10-47:13

I echo the Audible on that one.

Jerry: 

47:13-47:17

Will does such a great job, even as the author, reading that book.

Jerry: 

47:18-47:23

And if you're a fan of The Bear, there's a lot of influence.

Elizabeth: 

47:23-47:24

All those connections.

Jerry: 

47:24-47:25

It's pretty cool.

Elizabeth: 

47:25-47:27

I think the book's even in a scene, right?

Elizabeth: 

47:28-47:31

Yeah, I think the book is in a scene in the most recent season.

Elizabeth: 

47:31-47:31

Yeah.

Jerry: 

47:32-47:38

And there's also a documentary on the restaurant, particularly.

Lindsay: 

47:38-47:39

Eleven Madison Park.

Jerry: 

47:39-47:44

Yeah, Eleven Madison Park, as it was kind of going through that rise in the rankings.

Jerry: 

47:44-47:54

That was really interesting, particularly if you're interested in interior spaces and how you control the flow of, you know, people through them and the experience that they're having.

Jerry: 

47:54-47:56

Very, really interesting stuff.

Elizabeth: 

47:57-47:59

Jerry, you always gift the best books.

Elizabeth: 

47:59-48:00

You do get good books.

Jerry: 

48:02-48:02

Try to.

Jerry: 

48:03-48:09

We read a lot around here and we try and find things that we think are going to be relevant to folks.

Jerry: 

48:10-48:13

Well, guys, for both of us, thanks for joining us today.

Jerry: 

48:13-48:14

Really, really appreciate it.

Lindsay: 

48:14-48:17

It's been fun having this conversation.

Jerry: 

48:17-48:23

If folks wanted to follow Corgan's work or each of you individually, where should they go?

Elizabeth: 

48:24-48:43

you want to follow Corgan, LinkedIn or Instagram, Corgan Inc. We're also on X and Facebook, but LinkedIn and Instagram are our primary spots. And then we actually have our own podcast called The Square. You can catch it on YouTube or on any of the audio podcast apps. So please give us a follow.

Lindsay: 

48:43-48:53

And then on Corgan.com, go straight to the insights section for kind of the latest thought leadership across all of our markets and leaders.

Carl: 

48:54-48:59

Yeah, we can, we include links to the, in the show notes, so that'll make it easier for folks.

Carl: 

48:59-49:08

I want to echo Jerry. I mean, thanks again. Like this was a fun and eye-opening and great, great conversation. So thanks so much.

Lindsay: 

49:08-49:10

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Lindsay: 

49:10-49:10

Appreciate it.

Jerry: 

49:11-49:25

Well, that wraps up another episode of the Intangible Brand. And if you found value in today's conversation. We hope you shall take a moment to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us continue to bring these kinds of discussions and conversations

Carl: 

49:25-49:35

to all of you. You know, if you happen to be watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video and subscribe to our channel. It helps others discover the show and join our community.

Jerry: 

49:36-49:44

We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's episode, so feel free to leave a review or share your feedback or questions with us. Tell us what you liked, what you'd like to hear next.

Carl: 

49:45-49:51

And you can connect with us on LinkedIn as well, or visit our website at theintangiblebrand.com.

Carl: 

49:51-49:54

There we've got some more resources, information about the show.

Jerry: 

49:55-49:57

So thanks for joining us on The Intangible Brand.

Jerry: 

49:57-50:03

And remember, the strongest brands are built on the experiences they create, both for their clients and their teams.

Jerry: 

50:32-50:32

.