Transcript

Eric

[0:00]That's why we put so much effort into communicating internally, making sure everyone understands why a change has happened, whether it's branding or merger or whatever it may be, basically what it means to them and how it moves us all forward.

[0:14]

Employee and Client Experience Connection

Eric

[0:15]So that's the link that we're looking for between employee experience and client experience. Because if our team is feeling happy and engaged and bought into whatever is happening, then the clients are going to draw their energy from that as well.

Jerry

[0:31]Welcome to The Intangible Brand, where we explore the connection between employee experience and client experience and the hidden forces that make brands stick. I'm Jerry Genaria, and I'm joined by my co-host, Carl Winstead. And today, we're talking with Eric Annist, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications at Salas O'Brien. Eric has been instrumental in leading brand strategy for one of the most rapidly growing engineering and consulting firms in North America, overseeing multiple mergers, a major rebrand, and the complex work of unifying thousands of people under a single, values-driven brand. Eric, welcome to the show.

Eric

[1:07]Thank you. It's great to be with you. And Jerry, we really appreciate the partnership of Toki along the way in some of those changes. So thank you for that. As Jerry said, my name is Eric Anist. I oversee marketing and communications for our team. That involves anything from internal, external branding, communication around M&A, financing changes for our team. So it's been quite substantial. One thing I would say as something I'm especially grateful for is how integrated marketing is in the overall business strategy of Salas O'Brien. So whether it's M&A or recruitment, client relationships, our team goes beyond

[1:50]

Eric's Journey in AEC Marketing

Eric

[1:46]just being a service function and is really a driver of business outcomes. So I'm grateful for the team and for the leadership of Salas O'Brien.

Carl

[1:55]Well, that's great, Eric. It's great to meet you. I'm very excited to kind of hear what you tell us today and learn about where you've kind of headed to and what you're in the middle of. But it would be great to maybe take just a quick little step back, maybe tell us a little bit about our listeners about how you got to where you did today with your role with Alice O'Brien.

Eric

[2:16]Sure. So my first job in the AAC space was actually with the company that produces MasterSpec, if you're familiar with that. So I was the editorial director of that. And what that gave me is a couple of things. Firstly, it gave me a familiarity with AEC, with the terminology of AEC. And it also gave me an experience working with architects and engineers, understanding what's important to them. How do you get them to accept your advice? For example, one thing I learned is that, Many times you go to them and they'll say, no, flat out, they'll say, hey, I advise you to do this, flat out, no, come back the next day. They're like, hey, I was thinking about it. Actually, I think I can take that advice. And so you just learn kind of the mindset of these highly technical, highly valuable team members. And it was a great experience that serves me well to this day. After that, I did take a job in nonprofit communication. One thing that I found there is that nonprofits and AEC have a lot in common. They're very relationship-driven and they're very proposal-driven. And as you both know, those are two factors that are definitely true in AEC. And then in 2016, I joined Salas O'Brien and, you know, here almost a decade later, here we are.

Jerry

[3:37]Well, it's not the same company that you started with in 2016. You've been at the center of just massive growth. And you've told us a little bit about what brought you into the AEC space. I think that there is a lot of things that are in common with nonprofit, including often AEC firms not feeling very profitable, but I think you guys have been doing okay. How did that background kind of shape your approach to marketing and to brand leadership, particularly in a technical field that that, you know,

[4:14]

Mergers and Branding Challenges

Jerry

[4:12]you're you're bridging a couple of different worlds there?

Eric

[4:14]Well, I think, you know, foundationally, Salas O'Brien has a pretty unique model that I think has been a great fit for me as a leader. So the combination of employee ownership and a unified brand, yet entrepreneurial and empowered at the local level. So that definitely isn't easy to execute. There are days we all bang our heads against the wall and say, how do we make this work? But yet we're all committed to our collective success. We're all employee owners in our firm. And as you noted, the results eventually have spoken for themselves.

Carl

[4:55]You know, one thing that's kind of interesting to me is just the growth in which Saddles O'Brien has had over sort of the last couple of years. And that includes really some pretty significant mergers. And I think, you know, from a brand and communications perspective, that's a real, that's a real huge challenge. You know, thinking about how do you bring, you know, a new company into the fold of something established. So I'd be kind of curious to see what, like, how do you, how did you guys do that approach?

Eric

[5:26]Yeah, so there are several steps along the way that really set us up for branding success. You know, firstly is a huge credit to our leaders and those who are involved in the early discussions when a company is even thinking about joining Salas O'Brien. We make sure there's a good fundamental alignment with the two firms. So this gets down to our leaders meeting together over a period of several months. They establish good rapport. They really work together on what that path forward looks like together as a firm. One thing our CEO says is that, you know, the due diligence process is like a three month job interview. Because then you see, it's one thing to hear people say, oh yeah, this is how we operate. These are our values. But during that process of getting to know one another, we really have the opportunity to see, do they really live with their values? Are these people we would want as part of our firm?

[6:30]

Importance of Communication in Mergers

Eric

[6:24]And, you know, I'm grateful for the many cases and leaders where we've brought them in. And, you know, it's very obvious over time that they are who they say they are and they're great fits for Salas O'Brien.

Eric

[6:38]So, you know, making sure there's that good fundamental alignment is step one, maybe even step zero. You get nowhere without that. That said, you know, communication and marketing is a huge part of our success. You cannot have merger success without good communication. You can have all the inherent alignment that you want, but if people don't understand what you're doing, if you haven't communicated that openly and repeatedly, people will just make up their own narrative to fill in the gaps that you've left for them. And that's a huge mistake. And thankfully, it's one that we've tried to avoid. And other factors in kind of how we at Salus O'Brien have been successful is really lean hard toward transparency.

Eric

[7:25]So our CEO is kind of famous for not really oversharing, but sometimes he'll get advice to say, hey, just hold back on some of that detail. And he'll say, no, we need to push forward, share everything, because that's going to really create the success and the buy-in in the long term. So as part of our process for, say, a new merger announcement, or even just any sort of change announcement, it doesn't even have to be a merger. There are smaller group meetings with maybe key leaders where they can really dive deep, ask questions. Larger group, even all team meetings. Then we do frequently asked questions, maybe email follow-ups over the following weeks. We just basically do everything we can to make the new team feel welcome and part of Salas O'Brien without obviously overwhelming them on day one.

Jerry

[8:15]You've been through a lot of mergers. How many has it been now? Have you kept track?

Eric

[8:20]For me personally, it's getting close to 50. I know it's more than 40. We're getting close to 50 now.

[8:27]

Developing a Marketing Playbook

Eric

[8:27]So when I began getting involved in these, one of the things I saw the need for early on was really putting together a playbook for the marketing and communications aspect of this. And so we've we've done that we've refined the playbook over the years and my team kind of makes fun of me because basically anything that like this i'm like hey i think we need a playbook for that but because it's something we're doing over and over again you know we can't be making it up as we go we need to have kind of a defined plan but yet one that's flexible and adaptable to the circumstance because you're not going to need the same playbook or the exact same kind of specific tactics for a company of, say, five or 10 people that you would for a company of 300 people.

Jerry

[9:15]Yeah, that's a good point. But it gives you a chance to really refine that playbook because you get so many at-bats with it. A big part of this is brand integration. I would imagine that these mergers are often with companies that have strong local identities, deep histories.

[9:42]

Integrating New Brands Respectfully

Jerry

[9:36]People care about their brand, but you're bringing them into the Silas O'Brien family. What's the guiding philosophy behind how you integrate those brands?

Eric

[9:46]Yeah, I think firstly, we do try to be very clear that our strategy as a company is to build a single unified brand. That doesn't happen overnight. We're not here to kind of force it as kind of corporate know-it-alls of, hey, here's the playbook and you're going to follow it. It's more of a collaboration together over time. I would say, too, it's really important, and this is a lesson I think that we've learned through the mergers, is to plan the work and work the plan, as engineers might say. So basically create a plan together, um, and then kind of methodically work through that plan. One, so if you don't have a plan, if you're just kind of waiting for it to feel right, then you're going to be waiting maybe longer than, than is, is prudent or longer than really you would want to be waiting. But if you can work together on that plan, get it to move through it together, then ultimately you're, you're going to be successful.

Carl

[10:52]You know, it's interesting because you talked about, you know, 40 to 50 mergers in different companies, which that that's a that's a lot. And I can imagine. And you also said it's something there's a real big diversity. You know, one company could be 10 people. One company could be, you know, 100 people. So they're all different. But when you think about sort of unifying those under a brand, is there a way that you guys look at how to also honor like where each company that you're that you bring in the folds coming from? You know, and is it different for a 10 person versus a, you know, a hundred person firm?

Eric

[11:27]Yeah. So it's interesting. We don't really see there to be a huge disconnect

[11:36]

Honoring Company Histories

Eric

[11:31]between unifying under a brand and honoring where every company is coming from. So it's not an either or for us. It's a both because these are the, you know, if we're honoring say company founders or company leaders, these are the leaders who have made us collectively successful. So, yes, we want to move forward under one brand, but we always do so in such a way that honors the past and where we've come from. So, for example, we have every 18 months, we have a leadership and technical conference where we bring together a large number of leaders from across Salas O'Brien. And one of the most fun things we do is be in a group together and we'll have everyone stand up who is a founder or a leader of a team prior to joining Salas O'Brien. And it's a large number of people. And there are just kind of tangible ways we honor the impact of these team members, many of whom have made great personal sacrifice, putting their own kind of time and livelihood on the line for their teams over the years.

Jerry

[12:37]So one of the things that you talked about early on, and I think this is a big focus for your CEO, is this values alignment when you're making these acquisitions. And you talked about having like a three-month-long job interview, but how are you really assessing that alignment and, you know, how is that showing up in the playbook and the work that you're doing? Sure.

Eric

[12:59]So one thing that's really important to say, especially when speaking to maybe an audience that's passionate about marketing and sort of the, you might say the corporate expression of those values is when we talk about the values, we're not primarily speaking of what gets posted in the conference room. That's important. And the sort of tangible expression and kind of really seeing the brand infuse those values. However, what we mean primarily is leadership alignment. And so we're not going in to a merger, kind of having our values here and the new company's values there and kind of seeing how do we put them together.

Eric

[13:43]It's more a sense getting getting a sense for who the leaders are are they aligned with how we run as an organization that kind of humble hard working get their hands dirty take care of their people love their clients be in it for the long haul that's the kind of values alignment that we're looking for and then once we have that once we're once we're sure through that you know three month job interview that we've alluded to so to speak the values discussion it just kind of happens organically you know we've really never had an issue with a company you might say coming in and quote accepting our values because it's very clear the the kind of we're living them every day and that we're fundamentally aligned and you know there are going to be questions and differences of course but we've never had a substantial

[14:33]

Authentic Values Communication

Eric

[14:31]kind of conflict of values that.

Carl

[14:34]Makes sense yeah yeah are there are there certain tricks that you've done or things that to sort of make sure that, that those values, that communication of that does, in fact, be authentic rather than coming across as being corporate? Because I can imagine, again, as you grow, you know, it could be like, oh, yeah, here's another corporate value. But, you know, but you're striving for something different. You really want it to be authentic. Are there some pointers that you can give that have made that work?

Eric

[15:03]Well, it's something we struggle with because we want to be organized and coherent and how we communicate, of course. But we also, as I said before, we don't want to be the corporate know-it-alls who come in the day after a merger and plaster the values on posters everywhere in the break room or in the conference room. So we don't tend to be overly pushy about, say, the corporate expression of our values. We communicate them. We raise them in all-company meetings. Well, our CEO just did this a few weeks ago. He picked out some of the values and really tried to give sort of tangible expression to those and why they're important. So we definitely communicate them. We believe them. We hopefully model them. But as I said, we don't go plastering them around everywhere.

[15:51]

Employee Ownership and Values

Eric

[15:52]One point that I think is worth mentioning here is, you know, when we're talking about values alignment is really the idea of employee ownership. So for Salas O'Brien, we've infused kind of that ownership mindset into the values so much so that we literally call them.

Eric

[16:10]Ownership values. So although we're not technically an ESOP, our employees do hold of a super majority of the shares of the company. So that gives everybody a literal vested interest in acting not just as team members who take a paycheck, but as owners who are looking out for the company. It's probably also worth saying that communication about values and that kind of thing, it's really not just a top-down, but it's a two-way through. So like many companies, you know, we try to listen to our team, and we do it at least in an organized way through an annual engagement survey where we're assessing our employee net promoter score, which is very good compared to others currently at a plus 49, which, you know, most companies will say that if you're at a plus 30, that's outstanding.

[17:10]

Addressing Concerns of New Teams

Eric

[17:05]So we're grateful for the alignment that we have as a team and for how that's played out over time.

Jerry

[17:11]Well, that's a good segue to something I was interested in, which is when you're bringing on a new firm, particularly some of these smaller firms, I think one of the challenges can be this feeling like, you know, I'm joining the mothership, right? Silas is getting pretty big and I've been used to doing things my own way. Maybe I joined the firm that I'm in because it's small. So how do you help those team members feel excited about joining something a lot bigger rather than being anxious about losing their identity or losing the, I don't know, the feeling of autonomy or something that they might value?

Eric

[17:48]Well, Jerry, as you know, that's something we struggled with even during our branding process, because we, you know, some of the feedback we got during that process is that people were looking for more kind of unity of process. But yet at the same time, people want to, they don't want to feel like a cog in a corporate machine. So in a sense, there's really nothing you can do, let's say during a merger announcement, to prevent somebody from feeling anxiety about being sucked into the corporate behemoth. I think what we can say is that over time, the anxiety is greatly diminished because they see that while we do have a way that we're trying to do things on a corporate level, and that could be anything from our marketing world, our CRM, our marketing data, our branding, there's a great deal of local flavor that gets infused so that no one's going to come to somebody and say, hey, you must pursue this project or you must not pursue this project. There's still a high degree of local leadership. And our team has always really appreciated that. It doesn't make my life easy in marketing, you know, trying to kind of piece that together and make a unified full. But ultimately, we're way more successful for that strategy. And I think the brand has has been unified, even while we have some local expressions of it.

Carl

[19:15]That's good. You know, Eric, when you talk about, you know, the brand experience,

[19:24]

Creating Internal Brand Experience

Carl

[19:20]you know, those exist both internally and externally. It sounds like you guys have spent a lot of time thinking about, like, how to deal with that internally. So I'm wondering, like, what kind of things have you learned along the journey about creating that experience, that brand experience that will resonate internally just as much as it does on the, on the outside.

Eric

[19:43]Yeah. It, I would say, really for us, external resonance is not the primary thing we think about with our brand. I would say, and that may be unique to Salas O'Brien, but because we've been so active in the M&A space, really a critical success factor for our brand is internal resonance. And answering these questions, does it unify us together as a team? Does it move us forward to where we want to be going, you know, collectively as a firm so that we collectively are greater than the sum of those parts? Does it help us do more together than we could do separately? and you know certainly those things will lead you to external resonance kind of questions but really we we place a lot of focus on that internal communication first and then if our team is feeling bought in and really unified around the brand and salas o'brien and where we're going together they are the primary primary points of contact with the clients so they're feeling good about it, the clients will also feel good about it. Obviously, we need to be clear in our external communication as well. We put a lot of effort into digital marketing, for example, to really put forward our thought leadership approach. We want to be ultra clear in our corporate communication so people know what do we as a company stand for? What are the values that we can communicate overall?

Eric

[21:09]But I would say for us, we're thinking a lot about internal communication and then that sort of radiates out into our external communication.

[21:19]

Engaging Employees in Change

Carl

[21:20]Good. Okay.

Jerry

[21:21]I imagine some of our listeners might be thinking about, you know, their own brand evolution or a merger or something that they may be going through on a smaller scale and thinking about how do we make this brand launch, whether it's a rebrand or it's, you know, bringing a firm into the fold, how do we make it feel personal, inspiring? How do we get employees on board who didn't necessarily choose the change? Maybe they were more comfortable with where things were in the past or they're part of that acquisition.

Eric

[21:53]Yeah, I appreciate the question because getting people to kind of feel bought into whatever change is happening, whether it's financial or merger or branding, That's so important because if people feel that they're sort of disengaged from what's happening, then there could be really negative outcomes from, you know, come from a retention standpoint, just from a, or, or actually even props, perhaps even worse. If people feel disengaged from their work, but they're still there, that's, that's a really bad outcome. So we've been through this, not only as part of mergers, but as part of building a brand, as part of, as I mentioned, financial changes over the years. So one point that we really emphasize is listen to your team members. I mentioned the engagement survey that we do. I would also say, and this is a significant amount of work for our CEO, but when we do a merger announcement, he literally goes, meets with every single person of the team that's merging in.

Jerry

[22:56]Oh, wow.

Eric

[22:56]And, you know, if that's a large number of people, that's a big time commitment. But, you know, we see that as a critical point where people can share whatever is on their minds. And if it's challenging, we want to hear that. And I think that builds the confidence over a longer period of time. One anecdote I can share along that line is one of the very first mergers, actually, that I was part of with the company. we were moving into a new geography and even a new market sector. And there was a guy there who Brian Cousinow is his name. I'll come back to that in a second. But he said he had just joined the company maybe a month before. And then the merger announcement happened. And he's like, okay, I guess I'm going to get fired now and they're going to consolidate. And that was a nice month, but here we go.

Jerry

[23:48]Right.

Eric

[23:49]But then ultimately what he found is that the company was very open and far from coming in and kind of clearing the decks and doing things our way. We need everybody. But what he told our CEO when they were meeting together was, you know, you... You know, you're, you're telling me all this stuff and it sounds really positive, but it just sounds like a lot of rainbows and unicorns. So, you know, when's the, when's the real stuff going to start happening? And, you know, we've, we've kind of made a company theme of that where, you know, he tells that story pretty much every year at our, that leadership and technical conference, because, you know, A, you can say stuff like that to our CEO. And it's not like oh wow no no don't say anything negative no we want to hear it that we want that engagement to be there but also we want there to be over the long term people have to say yeah not everything's perfect but there's been a huge degree of positive so that's that's a great anecdote and by the way i don't know when this episode will drop but brian and hayley morrison from my team They're doing a presentation at the SMPS Amplify conference, and rainbows and unicorns feature heavily in the presentation. So if you have a chance to connect with them, I think you'd appreciate that.

Jerry

[25:06]Yeah, Carl and I will both be there. This episode will probably drop just a little after that, but we'll definitely check that out.

Carl

[25:13]Now, Erica, I was really interested in what you were saying about kind of your, you know, your, your CEO kind of going and sort of that initial reach and making very personal approach to new folks. And we all know that, you know, for a merger to be successful, you do have to have buy-in across all the teams. So you mentioned that kind of that initial sort of first step and you may have hinted at a few other things along the way, but are there some specific kind of things or rituals or tools that you guys have found that are like really effective in helping to get that buy in across your teams as you bring people in?

Eric

[25:52]A couple of things come to mind. Firstly, and this is more on the kind of back end of a merger, but it's hugely important. You know, those involved in the merger process in terms of interfacing with our CEO and corporate development teams, they're going to be significant shareholders. Before we make a kind of formal commitment to move forward, our CEO does also meet with what you might call the next level leaders. So he wants to know, is everybody on board fully committed for the long term? Because we want there to be just a long term commitment together. So it's not really a specific moment or ritual, but man, that's important because we want, because those are the, you know, kind of rising senior leaders. And if they're not bought in, the alignment is not going to be there long-term. So that's hugely important. As I mentioned, though, there's that kind of in-person meeting where everybody can meet with the CEO, say anything they want. We also make sure that the new team, once they've joined the company, they get invited very early on to all company meetings. I mentioned we are extremely transparent, and I think new teams are often surprised at how much information we share about the company performance, whether it's revenue, profitability, you name it. It's shared on our company intranet, and Darren, our CEO, walks through it in those company meetings.

Eric

[27:19]I've mentioned a couple of times the leadership and technical conference as well. And I would say that's a very impactful moment in kind of new team members really joining, whether it's a merger or just a new team member. Those conferences that we hold every 18 months, that really helps solidify relationships, you know, working together, technical knowledge. And while it's a significant investment on our part, both in time and resources, you know, it's very powerful and impactful.

Carl

[27:56]Are those conferences like a multi-day kind of event i mean what i mean and what kind of you know like is it a hundred people a thousand people what what is one of one of those conferences look like yeah.

Eric

[28:09]As much as we would like to get every single person together that logistics and.

Carl

[28:13]Cost of that.

Eric

[28:13]Would be overwhelming so it's roughly i'll say 350 people.

Carl

[28:18]Uh who.

Eric

[28:20]Who would come to that every 18 months. And then it's the meat of the conference is kind of a day and a half. So there's like a kind of a Thursday, Friday format where, you know, half day Thursday, all day Friday, that kind of thing. And we've also, we try to build some of the rituals that you mentioned into this. So we'll have certain evening events, you have one more fun, one more of a kind of a formal banquet will acknowledge people have maybe some awards that kind of thing okay all right.

[28:52]

Insights from the Rebranding Process

Jerry

[28:52]So if we go back in time just a little bit to the to the rebrand a couple of years ago, I'm wondering what what do you feel worked well for you guys in rolling that out and and through the process? Was there any surprises?

Eric

[29:06]I would say, well, firstly, I said it before, I'll say it again, you know, we really appreciate the outcome of the of the brand. You know, I would say, for me, what most excites me is that tagline that that we've been using since that time of engineered for impact. It's I appreciate how multifaceted that is. It really can be used to communicate internally, externally. And that impact can be impact to our team, impact to our clients, impact to the company. So, I would say that outcome was definitely worth it.

Eric

[29:40]I don't know if it was really a surprise, but it's something that I think might, you know, those who are about to embark on a brand, I would say, don't be surprised at how long it's going to take start to finish. Yeah, I think for us, it was close to a two-year process.

Eric

[29:57]And there were some unique factors to us to why it took that long. You know, if we were more of a top down kind of this is how it's going to be organization, we could have done it faster. But because of how we operate as a firm, we wanted there to be a significant amount of communication, buy in and support. And ultimately, we had to make some decisions and move forward with certain aspects. But I think because we took it slow, that really helped us. It helped it stick more. And I think we've seen the value of that to this day. So for those who are thinking about a rebrand or about a significant kind of strategic move like that just be prepared for the time commitment build that into your expectations and if you need to do something sooner rather than later just ruthlessly cut complexity out so just make it kind of quick and easy and then you can always build on that over time but don't don't over complicate it if you're on a tight time schedule make it simple and just understand what that time commitment is going to be. I would say in terms of what went well, we made sure that our whole team was aware of the process and was participating in it, as I mentioned before. That doesn't mean that all the feedback we heard was complimentary or even positive.

Eric

[31:18]But ultimately people felt that they had buy-in, that their voice was heard. And I really do believe that helped it stick in the long term.

Carl

[31:28]Eric, if you were kind of thinking back, like we're already doing, if you think back to like, was there like maybe a lesson learned? Is there something that you would have maybe handled differently? Something that you would pass on to somebody else who's thinking about a brand transformation, you know, in a growing company?

[31:43]

Lessons Learned from Brand Transformation

Eric

[31:43]You know looking back there are you know certain moments i'm sure we could have handled better but i think overall i'm i'm pretty satisfied with how we handled the the brand we as i said we tried to listen we we tried to be strategic we importantly one thing jerry was drilling into us from the probably the very first call we had is skate where that puck is going not where it is today And that was very important for us. So we tried to set up our brand to not only accomplish where Salas O'Brien was in 2021 and two when we were in the meat of this process, but to really set up that brand for where we're going today in 2025 and really on into the future. So that's, it's not a lesson learned in a negative sense, but man, that's a powerful lesson that I would really encourage others to take to heart as you're thinking about your brand. Don't just have your head down in today, really raise your gaze to the horizon and look out and plan for that.

Jerry

[32:46]Yeah. Vision casting is really important. I want to go back and revisit something that we talked about just briefly,

[32:59]

Linking Employee Experience to Client Experience

Jerry

[32:55]and that's the kind of link between employee experience and client experience. I know you guys are really intentionally focused on the internal brand and how it manifests, but can you talk about what's your perspective on that link between the two?

Eric

[33:12]Yeah, in an industry like AEC, clients relate primarily to people. So, you know, there's this inherent connection between how your team is feeling and then how your clients are going to be feeling because they're kind of drawing that energy, that connection from the individuals that they're working with from your firm. So that's why we put so much effort into communicating internally, making sure everyone understands why a change has happened, whether it's branding or merger or whatever it may be, basically what it means to them and how it moves us all forward. So that's the link that we're looking for between employee experience and client experience. Because if our team is feeling happy and engaged and bought into whatever is happening, then that's the clients are going to draw their energy from that as well. And ultimately, I think we've seen that borne out. So I mentioned we do like an employee net promoter score. We also do a client net promoter score. And those are both very positive and reflecting sort of that our strategy would seem to be sticking.

Carl

[34:20]Interesting. As you think about kind of what's happened with your brand rollout and all, have you seen like a shift? I mean, have clients noticed a change and have you seen any kind of, I don't know, either behavioral shifts or just feedback from them since you did your rollout?

Eric

[34:40]Yeah, I mean, clients, of course, notice, you know, our colors are different. There's a real sense in which in which we changed everything but the name of the company. So I hope clients notice that.

Carl

[34:52]Yeah.

Eric

[34:53]That said, as I've said before, in the end of the day, clients care more about the people and relationships than they do about what fonts you're using. And kind of, in our case, the 45 degree angle, right? Like, we care a lot about that. But ultimately, that's background knowledge for the client. And they're, they're not going to comment specifically on that. However, where I think I can definitely say on a tangible level that the new brand has really been impactful is through M&A.

[35:25]

Impact of the Brand on Mergers

Eric

[35:26]So companies have merged into Salas O'Brien and they have specifically told us, using your old brand, we would not have seen you as an equal with us and we would not have merged with you had that brand not been something that we felt we identified with and was inspirational. For us, our team, and our clients. And I would also say that we've had several success stories where companies join us, and then after the fact, they're able to reach into their existing clients with a broader set of services than they ever would have previously. And I'm not going to say the brand takes sole credit for that, but the brand is definitely, it gives them the framework to communicate that kind of thing.

[36:13]

Advice for Marketing Leaders

Eric

[36:11]And it's been a powerful success story for us.

Jerry

[36:14]Yeah, that's that's awesome. So I think as folks are listening there, is there advice that you would give to marketing leaders that might be navigating mergers and acquisitions in particular or culture integration or brand evolution?

Eric

[36:31]Yeah, I mean, a couple of things come to mind. Firstly, is maybe counterintuitive, but specifically if you're the marketing leader of your firm. Leave your marketing at the door for just a minute. Bring a strategic mindset to that leadership table.

Eric

[36:46]Know the key issues that your firm is facing and bring strategic solutions forward, whatever those might be, whether they're marketing or communication or not. I think that's really important. Sometimes marketing team leaders, I've heard from them, and I know probably both of you have as well, that they kind of lament the lack of a seat at the table. And I think that strategic mindset can really help you get that seat at the table so that you're contributing, not just kind of pushing a marketing agenda, but really having that strategic mindset that pushes the whole company forward.

Eric

[37:21]That said, I would also say believe in what you do. Be aware of and believe in the power of good communication so i said earlier that you know no amount of good communication is going to make a merger succeed that doesn't have fundamental alignment however without good communication you're also not going to succeed so it's a bit of a both end um and yeah i just want to make sure that people really truly believe in the value that they create and that they would they they help achieve real success faster and then finally i would just say be grateful for for leadership teams that get it i understand that not every team does but there are teams out there that do and i would say be grateful for those leaders and really appreciate them because one thing that i will say about leaders is it's a lonely job and people don't often appreciate leaders they bring problems to leaders they don't often appreciate leaders. So to the degree that you can do that, it'll make a huge difference.

Jerry

[38:27]Yeah.

Carl

[38:28]Well, that's, I mean, that's just amazing that those are great points to, to think about. I really appreciate that. That really resonates. I think you're right at leaders. It's, it's a, it's a lonely profession. Sometimes you're, you're right. We we've told people, Hey, you know, when we do something right, come tell us about that too, because sometimes it's really good to replicate a success as well as solve a problem. That's right. But that's that's great. I've got I have one more thing I'd love to ask. You've given some great advice and great things to think about. We're always looking to say, hey, you know what? Where's your your inspiration coming from these days? So is there is there a book or a podcast that you think would be great for our folks to listen to?

Eric

[39:12]I would say for the topic of this conversation, especially, I have it right here. So I'll go ahead and hold it up. So it's this book. It probably has a different cover these days, but it's called Managing Transitions by William Bridges. So, without going into a full summary of the book, the basic idea is that people say that people struggle with change. There's a sense in which that's true, but there's a real sense in which what people struggle with is transition.

[39:47]

Recommended Reads and Podcasts

Eric

[39:44]In other words, the process of getting from point A to point B. So a point that he makes for example is that some changes are hugely positive let's say you know kind of think of your classic life changes you know you you get married you have a first child whatever that may be all of those involve giving up things and gaining things and you have to help people work through the process of of giving up things you know give them space to in a sense to mourn that change to acknowledge it and then to move forward because there's something better ahead of them so i would say anybody who's involved with change communication you know mergers you know branding that's a i love that book it's very easy to understand i think i think.

Eric

[40:37]Naturally enough since since here we are doing one um but i would say one that i especially appreciate very short usually about 20 minute episodes it's called at the table with patrick linchoni so he's written a lot of leadership books i've read almost all of them but i would say i even even more than the books i appreciate the podcast because they're looking at organizational health and how to really infuse that into your organization and you know i the the leadership mindset that they have. He'll talk about being hungry, humble, and smart. I think, man, that's what I want for myself. That's what I want for Salas O'Brien. It's what I want for the people I work with. So really appreciate that podcast as well.

Jerry

[41:19]That's awesome. Well, Eric, thank you so much for being on our podcast and we're thrilled to have you. This has been a fascinating conversation. Mergers and acquisitions for me is an important topic. I keep threatening to write a book about it. So expect me to give you a call when I get to it. So thank you for being a part of what we're doing here.

[41:45]

Conclusion and Wrap-Up

Jerry

[41:45]And I think that wraps up another episode of The Intangible Brand. If you found value in today's conversation, we'd love it if you'd take a moment to follow, to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us continue to bring these kinds of discussions to you.

Carl

[42:03]And if you happen to be watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video and subscribe to our channel if it helps others discover the show and join our community.

Jerry

[42:12]Yeah, and we'd love to hear your thoughts on today's episode. Feel free to leave a review, share feedback questions with us. Tell us what you liked, what you'd like to hear next.

Carl

[42:22]And you can always connect with us on LinkedIn or visit our website at theintangiblebrand.com. There you'll find some more resources and information about the show.

Jerry

[42:31]So thanks for joining us on The Intangible Brand. And remember, the strongest brands are built on the experiences they create, both for their clients and for their teams.